Interview with Meghan Wilson Duff, Author of “How Are You, Verity?”
Do YOU like sea life as much as Verity? If you do, what are some of your favorite facts about sea life?
Yes, I do love sea life. If you had asked me when I was Verity’s age, I would have said I wanted to be a marine biologist. I don’t have favorite animals or facts because it would be too stressful to choose. If you pick up a squid or cephalopod theme in my writing it's because one of my kids really loved squids and vampire squids (which are not squids, but are also cephalopods.) We’ve watched several of the MBARI vampire squid videos many, many times.
I recently read The Blue Machine: How the Ocean Works by Helen Czerski. The author is a physicist who studies the ocean, so that was a new perspective for me. The Brilliant Abyss: Exploring the Majestic Hidden Life of the Deep Ocean and the Looming Threat That Imperils It by Helen Scales was lovely for learning about deep sea creatures and their communities, but also about how it is imperative to protect those communities from extractive industries. The Scales book pairs well with The Wild Robot Protects, which is the third book in Peter Brown’s Wild Robot middle grade series. Also, a nonfiction picture book that I’ve recently enjoyed is Life After Whale: The Amazing Ecosystems of a Whale Fall by Lynn Brunelee and Jason Chin. I really appreciate learning about ecosystems and relationships between organisms rather than focusing on one type of animal.
Instead of a sealife infodump, I just gave you sea-related book recommendations. 😀🦑
What was your collaboration with Taylor Barron, the illustrator of How Are You, Verity? like? What do you think about all the illustrations of sea life?
This was my first book so it was all new to me, and I learned a lot. The best part for me was seeing the illustrations from character sketches to final pages. I didn’t interact directly with Taylor when she was working on the illustrations. The editor Sarah Fell would pass my feedback to Taylor and then I wrote to Taylor directly after the book went to the printers and told her how much I loved the illustrations.
I’m pretty aphantasic, which means I can’t see or hold images in my mind very well, so it was great to see Verity and their world for the first time. Taylor’s use of colors is beautiful, but I love the way she used water to give space for Verity’s thoughts and feelings on the page. I also liked the different types of sea life she illustrated, not just different animals, but all sorts like Verity’s stuffed animals or their drawings or illustrations in the books they are looking at or details in the background textures, etc. If you’re a sea life lover, there is a lot to look at.
Taylor made a line drawing sketch of the cover that includes blank parts so kids can draw themself on the log, put their name in a title, and illustrate what they love to think, learn, and talk about below. I bring copies with me for school visits, but the pdf is also available on my author website if anyone would like to use it.
Conversations about neurodivergence are all too often “black and white,” “all or nothing,” or based on generalizations. In How Are You, Verity, you created a nuanced person - who is a whole person - not just a conglomeration of stereotypes. Can you tell us about the intentionality behind your choice not to label or draw specific attention to Verity’s neurodivergence?
I waffled on whether to specify that Verity was autistic, ADHD, or AuDHD or describe them as a neurodivergent kid. I worried that if I went with a diagnosis I might get pressure to make it a treatment-oriented book. Those books might have their place, but that was not what I was writing. I wanted an affirming book from an autistic perspective rather than a “here’s how you should be or do things differently” book from an allistic perspective. I’m a clinical psychologist by training and a former clinician, and Magination Press is part of the American Psychological Association, so you can see why people might expect me to take a clinical or therapeutic angle as an author rather than a personal, experiential one. Instead the editor, Sarah Fell, encouraged me to add more sea life!
Neurodiversity is a social movement which draws from the disability rights and LGBT rights movements. In the Reader’s Note, I share why I think it is important and provide some suggestions for supporting neurodivergent young people. Some of the suggestions are specific to supporting autistic kids, like not worrying if your kid(s) have very unique or specific interests and really want to focus on those. Embrace it.
Also, autistic kids aren’t the only people who might love a good infodump about sea life, appreciate feeling connected to their community, struggle socially sometimes, or get confused and need to know it is okay to share when things are overwhelming them.
Unfortunately, people who are neurodivergent are often expected to conform to the expectations of neurotypical people. Verity’s brother, however, seems to know and understand Verity, and the siblings clearly have a loving, positive, affectionate relationship in which Verity can truly be themself. Can you talk about what you imagined their relationship to look like, and why it is important for Verity?
Verity’s brother John is pure fantasy from my childhood. I grew up an only child, and I always wanted someone safe who could help me figure things out and wouldn’t tease me about what I
didn’t know or didn’t understand. John is autistic, which I understand wouldn’t necessarily be apparent to all readers. John doesn’t tell Verity not to infodump or just say “good” if someone asks. Some readers have described him as instructing Verity, but he never does. He just brings something to their attention and lets them figure out what to do with that information.
Sociologist and social psychologist Damian Milton described the Double Empathy Problem in 2012. It describes the social mismatch between allistic (non-autistic) and autistic people that often causes problems with empathy and connection in cross-group pairings. This is a real 😹change from the assumption that autistic people are the ones that are poor at connecting socially and allistic people are good at these things. It’s a revelation for many people, including older autistic people, because for a long time medical, mental health, and education professionals have defined the problem as inherent to being autistic because the diagnosis is framed around deficits in social communication and the ability to connect with others. From this dominant and ableist perspective, the lack of empathy, difficulty communicating, and lack of interest and success at sustaining relationships are autistic people’s problem, and therefore they need to change. The idea that autistic people just do things differently, are interested in connecting with others, and don’t necessarily struggle with connection and understanding with other autistic people or in autistic communities is a game changer. It makes the problem one of how to increase understanding and connection across different groups, rather than one group needs change to accommodate the other. It also prompts us to look at how society’s very narrow set of expectations hurts people who don’t fit those expectations. If an example would be helpful here, the allistic focus on eye contact as the most important signifier of connection, respect, and listening is not a norm in autistic spaces, but the lack of eye contact does not impede autistic people’s ability to connect or feel listened to. From an autistic perspective, forcing eye contact on someone for whom it is painful or really overwhelming will definitely make it harder to develop a relationship in which they feel comfortable, respected, and safe. The allistic assumption that autistic people are aloof is just them misreading autistic people based on allistic norms.
For me, the best part of the Double Empathy Problem was recognizing that things I struggle with and have felt made me less relatable are actually things I share with many people. They understand without me having to explain. In fact, these differences are points of connection whether it is a shared sense of humor or unabashed enthusiasm about learning or relating to sensory challenges and difficulties navigating neurotypical norms.
Author’s Note:
I’ve had people ask why How Are You, Verity? isn’t marketed as an LGBTQIA+ book even though Verity is a nonbinary. I don’t really know. That is something the publisher decides. Some readers have been upset because they were looking for LGBTQIA+ representation in children’s books and wouldn’t have necessarily found the book. Other readers have been angry because they didn’t expect LGBTQIA+ content in a book they thought was about neurodiversity, as if those two groups don’t overlap.
It’s important to know autistic people as a group have a higher percentage of LGBTQIA+ folks than allistic people. I loved the start of Hannah Gadsby’s comedy show Nanette because they asked, “Where do the quiet gays go?” I’ve struggled fitting socially into queer communit(ies) just as I had in straight communit(ies). At the Translating Identity Conference this year, I hosted an affinity group for autistic transgender and nonbinary people, and for every single one of us, that was our first experience being together in-person. It was lovely to feel that connection amidst all of our differences. If you’re supporting young autistic people, you’re supporting many young LGBTQIA+ people. And there is lots of diversity underneath the LGBTQIA+ umbrella.
By the way, I appreciate Dana Rudolph’s Mombian website, which includes the Database of LGBTQ+ Family Books. She includes children’s books that are not marketed as LGBTQIA+ and don’t necessarily center on LGBTQIA+ specific topics but have representation in the characters, art work, and stories. These books are important too.
